Yeshua, the Temple and Atonement, part 1

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nazarene
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Re: Yeshua, the Temple and Atonement, part 5

Post by nazarene » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:12 am

tom moniz wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:22 pm
Shalom Naz,

Interesting connections you are making in this series. I must ask though, in part 5 you quoted Josephus (pasted below). Do we agree that the garment described in 153 is not the same garment being described in 159?

Sincerely,
Tom
Hi Tom,

I have refined the citation and added another citation, the clothing in 153 is different from 159.

For a more detailed study about the dress of the High Priest and what Josephus says you can go here:

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/ ... sertations

In the PDF the conclusion about what Josephus is saying begins at the PDF page 342 or page 317 if going by the page numbering.

Hope this helps,
שלום
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tom moniz
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Re: Yeshua, the Temple and Atonement, part 1

Post by tom moniz » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:44 pm

Shalom Naz,

If one willingly walks into the lion den, knowing the risk, and the lion kills him, is it murder? No, because the lion is an animal and is doing what he does. But what if that "lion" was an out of control priesthood and kingship and the Only True God sent His firstborn, the heir, to inspect? Does this absolve the murderers of their crime because he willingly walked into their den? And if not, who is responsible for his death?

I guess I am seeing it more in the light of the parable of the vineyard and the many servants sent who also risked/sacrificed their lives, and then sending his son, his son also knew the danger and risked/sacrificed his life (Matt 21:33-43). This is also related to the subject:

Mat 23:34 Therefore, lo! I am dispatching to you prophets and wise men and scribes. Of them, some you will be killing and crucifying, and of them, some you will be scourging in your synagogues and persecuting from city to city,
Mat 23:35 so that on you should be coming all the just blood shed on the earth, from the blood of just Abel until the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murder between the temple and the altar."
Mat 23:36 Verily, I am saying to you: All these things will be arriving on this generation."

How much more so the blood of the heir?

You also mentioned this:

<<<"When the priest eats the 'sin' or 'sin offering' [Hosea 4:8-9] I strongly suspect that this is 're-enacting' the events in the Garden of Eden. When Adam ate the fruit, this would take on a cultic [i.e. priestly] context. Although I as yet know of no historical sources to support such a reading of the text.

However it can be shown that in second Temple period times the Garden of Eden was considered the Holy of Holies, and as such, each act would logically take on a cultic context;>>>


Interesting thought, although I think one would have to expand the Garden to the whole mishkan and not just the Holy of Holies due to nothing being consumed therein. I have to admit, I have yet to take the concept of consuming sin back to the Garden. My focus over the years has been the various ceremonial offerings and their linkage to the patriarchal accounts. Seems i have forgotten to include Adam, duh. Thank you, something to dwell upon :-)

Sincerely,
Tom
Num 14:21 ואולם חי־אני וימלא כבוד־יהוה את־כל־הארץ׃

TBE And truly I live! And the magnitude of הוה WILL fill all the earth!

It WILL happen.

nazarene
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Re: Yeshua, the Temple and Atonement, part 1

Post by nazarene » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:21 pm

Hi Tom,
Shalom Naz,

If one willingly walks into the lion den, knowing the risk, and the lion kills him, is it murder? No, because the lion is an animal and is doing what he does.

If it is not murder, then there are no murderers.

But what if that "lion" was an out of control priesthood and kingship and the Only True God sent His firstborn, the heir, to inspect?

Here you seem to be carrying over the analogy.

Does this absolve the murderers of their crime because he willingly walked into their den?

If we continue with the original analogy, there are no murderers, as there was no murder, they have no case to answer too, as there is no crime.
And if not, who is responsible for his death?

Following along with the analogy, there is no murder, no murderers, and so the only person[s] responsible is 1] the Most High 2] the Son.

However, according to the Witnesses that we have the death of Yeshua was considered murder [Acts 7:52], as they killed Yeshua [Acts 3:15], with lawless hands [Acts 2:23], albeit ignorantly [Acts 3:17] for which Yeshua prayed for forgiveness for on the stake as it was in ignorance [Luke 23:34].

The leaders of the nation of Yisrael were working together with the nations to put Yeshua to death [Acts 4:27], if the leaders [who represented the nation of Yisrael] were in ignorance, then it would also be logical to conclude that the leaders of the nations [and by extension their respective nations] were also in ignorance [and indeed this is how the apostle Paul sees it, 1 Corinthians 2:8].

Given that the leaders of the nations and the leaders of Yisrael were ignorantly putting Yeshua to death, their cure is ironically found in the result. The death of the High Priest permits exiles who have ignorantly killed someone to return, and so, the death of Yeshua, as High Priest restores the nation of Yisrael's right to return, and the nations along with them.

Hope this helps,
שלום
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tom moniz
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Re: Yeshua, the Temple and Atonement, part 1

Post by tom moniz » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:16 am

Shalom Naz,

Although the analogy you have picked up on is concerning a lion and not humans, I will agree that many were ignorant in that they saw Yeshua as being a blasphemer and false prophet, and due to their love and zeal to please YHWH they put him to death. How far that ignorance extends is a matter only YHWH knows for it is YHWH who searches out the hearts of men. How many sought his death because they saw him as a threat to their personal interests? Again, only YHWH knows for sure. What we do know is Pilate thought it wise to wash his hands of the matter, and others wanted his blood on them. We also know it is wrong to kill the innocent. I did read the references you quoted and their contexts and simply do not believe that such blanket statements could be made about the intent of every individual who wanted Yeshua dead. If they were all inclusive statements then I would be led to conclude that everyone was ignorant and only Pilate actually knew what was going on, but then again, Pilate would have been included in the all inclusive statements concerning the ignorance of the leaders of the world.

You stated: Following along with the analogy, there is no murder, no murderers, and so the only person[s] responsible is 1] the Most High 2] the Son.>>>

Can't go there :-) I can't even say YHWH killed an animal to clothe Adam and Chavah. YHWH may indeed have sent Yeshua into the lions den, but it was those in the den who killed him, whether ignorantly or due to personal interests. Much like with the Prophets sent before.

You stated: Given that the leaders of the nations and the leaders of Yisrael were ignorantly putting Yeshua to death, their cure is ironically found in the result. The death of the High Priest permits exiles who have ignorantly killed someone to return, and so, the death of Yeshua, as High Priest restores the nation of Yisrael's right to return, and the nations along with them.>>>

Interesting concept, although you are extrapolating on an instruction directed at Aaron and his sons. It may indeed be valid, but it takes some work to get there, such as accepting the idea of a Melky Tzadiq priesthood existing before (and maybe even during) the Aaronic.

Sincerely,
Tom
Num 14:21 ואולם חי־אני וימלא כבוד־יהוה את־כל־הארץ׃

TBE And truly I live! And the magnitude of הוה WILL fill all the earth!

It WILL happen.

RemnantKitty
Posts:1
Joined:Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:08 pm

Re: Yeshua, the Temple and Atonement, part 1

Post by RemnantKitty » Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:22 pm

"Although the analogy you have picked up on is concerning a lion and not humans, I will agree that many were ignorant in that they saw Yeshua as being a blasphemer and false prophet, and due to their love and zeal to please YHWH they put him to death."

This implys they were not aware Jesus was the Messiah, but it was common knowledge up until the second temple period that there was a God head and henceforth, they chose to deny Jesus the messiah out of shame they had killed him. There was not one person standing on the crucifixion site who did not believe they had done a terrible and heinous act. The dead walked with Jesus on his resurrection.

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